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Author Topic: Electric fuel pump  (Read 2738 times)

timatoe

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Electric fuel pump
« on: July 05, 2017, 07:21:51 PM »

OK so the other day I go to start the Jeep to head in to work, starts fine like normal, go to back out and it dies and won't re-start.

Haven't had much time to mess with it, but reading through a ton of various threads on fuel issues with a Howell kit I've checked nearly everything and it all seems to be working fine, except the fuel pump.

I pulled the line from the throttle body and stuck it in a bucket.  Jumped the fuel pump relay and it initially started pumping gas so I moved on and started checking other things.  As everything else checked out I came back to the pump and tried again and nothing.  I called Howell and spoke with their tech support and he said it sounded like a bad pump.  So, today I go get another pump $100  :pissed: do the install and still no pumpy, well not like I think it should be anyhow.

I'm thinking I need to get the pump good and primed but not sure I really know WTF I'm doing to get it there.  When I first installed the TBI kit, I put it on turned the key, the pump came on and it started easy peezy.

Am I crazy or am I missing something?
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Day215

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2017, 07:25:56 PM »

OK so the other day I go to start the Jeep to head in to work, starts fine like normal, go to back out and it dies and won't re-start.

Haven't had much time to mess with it, but reading through a ton of various threads on fuel issues with a Howell kit I've checked nearly everything and it all seems to be working fine, except the fuel pump.

I pulled the line from the throttle body and stuck it in a bucket.  Jumped the fuel pump relay and it initially started pumping gas so I moved on and started checking other things.  As everything else checked out I came back to the pump and tried again and nothing.  I called Howell and spoke with their tech support and he said it sounded like a bad pump.  So, today I go get another pump $100  :pissed: do the install and still no pumpy, well not like I think it should be anyhow.

I'm thinking I need to get the pump good and primed but not sure I really know WTF I'm doing to get it there.  When I first installed the TBI kit, I put it on turned the key, the pump came on and it started easy peezy.

Am I crazy or am I missing something?

I had an issue with a rotted hose on the fuel pump, it was sucking air and would bleed off after sitting. Do you still have residual pressure after it sits for awhile? I don't know much about your Howell setup.
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92 Toyota minitruck Front Dana 60 4.88s, Lincoln locked, drive slugs blah blah blah. Rear Dana 70 4.88s, Lincoln locked, 63 chevys. W56 5speed, 2.28 duals, 22re. 39.5s and other stuff. Bobbed, exod, cut up etc. I used to wheel a YJ, then I defected. Now no one talks to me anymore.....cant completly blame that on the switch though.

I'm out of the club. Stay away from my wiener.

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2017, 08:19:40 PM »

I replaced the hose from the hard line to the filter and from the filter to the pump, both were dry and cracking but not all the way through.  Replaced the filter as well.  There typically is fuel behind the filter to the tank but not today.  No residual pressure after the pump once it's off, it basically releases through the throttle body and back via the return line.
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Screaming Bear

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2017, 07:07:37 AM »

How is the tank vented? Have you replaced the gas cap recently possibly with a non-vented one. I am guessing you have a charcoal canister in your Jeep also. You may want to take the gas cap off just to check if venting is your issue.
My fuel pump relay is used for two second priming and while cranking but the main feed is through an oil pressure switch. I would also check that the pump has a good ground.
Is your pump external or in the tank? Pick-up tube cracked or screen clogged? Just a few things to think about  :knock:
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51 CJ3-A, 4.3 TBI Chevy, SM420, Dana 18TC, 30/44 Full Floaters, Yukon Front Axle and Hubs, rear drive flanges, Detroit Fr / E-Locker Rr, 4.27:1 Gears, 74:1, HD steering / 4 wheel disk brakes, Viair 550C, 100% LED - VisionX headlights, Rigid Light-bar, DOT Fogs, Grote tail, Soft Top and Heater, 35"KM-2's, 3" up, no articulation - it works

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2017, 10:07:26 AM »

Everything was good, I tried multiple things at the tank as well, blew out both the pickup and return lines to make sure they weren't clogged etc.  It's an external pump that came with the kit.

When I replaced the pump, I checked the two wires coming in and went ahead and replaced all the hoses and the pump relay.  I'm gonna head out again in a little bit and work on it some more.

I did find the pick up screen/filter essentially disintegrated in the bottom of the tank.  Now that I'm typing this, I'm wondering if that prevented the pickup tube from being far enough down in the fuel??  There was only about 5 gallons in the 20 gallon tank, which I'd think would be enough, but who knows.

Coffee then work...
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Mr.B

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 09:54:39 AM »

Any luck?
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White '94 YJ 2.5L 5 speed, 35" BFGs KM2's, 5" lift, Mark VII 2 speed fan, Milemarker PE8000, Front Aussie Locker, Power steering conversion, '98 Cavalier seats, MORE Boomerangs in front, 136 amp ZJ alternator, JB conversions SYE, Tom Woods custom drive shaft, 8.8 with ARB, 4.88 gear ratio, Teralow

You're a super genius....
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 03:20:05 AM »

Nope no luck, I couldn't find a new pickup screen for the stock tank so went ahead and put the cell in.  No dice.  I'm gonna try a couple of things before going in to work and see if any of that helps. 

Can't do anything Monday as I have to take my daughter to Freshman Orientation at Chico St.

If I don't get it tomorrow, I'll be on the phone to Howell first thing Tuesday morning.
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Screaming Bear

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 07:54:52 AM »

Have you tried running the pump with a piece of hose drawing from a gas can? I wonder if screen got into the new pump also. I run a standard fuel filter between the tank and pump and never had an issue priming. Did you check output at the pump or just on the return line? If Howell uses a GM style throttle body maybe the pressure regulator is messed up. I have a new SS 15PSI spring in stock but not the diaphragm. I also have a spare pump if you want to try it. I run a .5 micron cartridge filter with a gauge just ahead of the TB.
If the problem is 12v power to the pump, you could wire it to a switch for now. I know you want to make the Rubicon trip.
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51 CJ3-A, 4.3 TBI Chevy, SM420, Dana 18TC, 30/44 Full Floaters, Yukon Front Axle and Hubs, rear drive flanges, Detroit Fr / E-Locker Rr, 4.27:1 Gears, 74:1, HD steering / 4 wheel disk brakes, Viair 550C, 100% LED - VisionX headlights, Rigid Light-bar, DOT Fogs, Grote tail, Soft Top and Heater, 35"KM-2's, 3" up, no articulation - it works

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 11:28:39 AM »

The new pump never saw gas from the old tank and exploded screen filter.

I put the fuel cell in and ran new line to the filter, then the pump, then the TB.  I'm getting plenty of fuel from the feed line but the injectors are not firing.

I have spark because I can spray starting fluid in there and it'll fire right up for about 2 seconds.

About to part this fucker out and buy a new JK with air conditioning and electric windows and power heated seats and oh bullshit, she'll never let me do it.
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Mr.B

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 11:58:58 AM »

Do you TBI or MPFI? I guess the Howell gives the injector signal. Maybe the injector/s got clogged from the screen?
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White '94 YJ 2.5L 5 speed, 35" BFGs KM2's, 5" lift, Mark VII 2 speed fan, Milemarker PE8000, Front Aussie Locker, Power steering conversion, '98 Cavalier seats, MORE Boomerangs in front, 136 amp ZJ alternator, JB conversions SYE, Tom Woods custom drive shaft, 8.8 with ARB, 4.88 gear ratio, Teralow

You're a super genius....
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 12:53:18 PM »

I thought about injector clog, but..... #1 I pulled the injector unit off the Throttle Body and then didn't get it apart further because there's a screw on the bottom that I don't know what it's for so I don't wanna dick it up and #2 anything that could have got there would have had to make it past the fuel filter and the pump.

I'm beginning to believe based on everything else I've checked that the tach filter is bad.  I don't know if I need a tach filter though as it was put in by Howell to convert the signal from the stock Duraspark ignition into a readable signal for the ECM and I'm running a HEI.

I'm running out of time quickly so I'm going to post a thread in YJ Tech on JF and see if anyone knows for sure.  Otherwise I'm calling Howell in the morning on the way to Chico, giving them the run down and see if they can overnight me a new one.

So just a refresher here's what I've got....

* Good fuel coming to the throttle body
* Good spark because it will start with starting fluid
* 12v at the injector with the key on and while cranking
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Screaming Bear

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 12:54:09 PM »

The new pump never saw gas from the old tank and exploded screen filter.

I put the fuel cell in and ran new line to the filter, then the pump, then the TB.  I'm getting plenty of fuel from the feed line but the injectors are not firing.

I have spark because I can spray starting fluid in there and it'll fire right up for about 2 seconds.

About to part this fucker out and buy a new JK with air conditioning and electric windows and power heated seats and oh bullshit, she'll never let me do it.
UhOh. Quick check for injector pulse is with a 164/ 191 bulb plugged into the injector socket. Brother Bill blew his Painless ECM welding on his Bronco with the battery connected. The injector driver stayed on all the time with his. You might also want to "T" in a pressure gauge. If the regulator spring broke all the fuel would pump back to the tank without building pressure.
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51 CJ3-A, 4.3 TBI Chevy, SM420, Dana 18TC, 30/44 Full Floaters, Yukon Front Axle and Hubs, rear drive flanges, Detroit Fr / E-Locker Rr, 4.27:1 Gears, 74:1, HD steering / 4 wheel disk brakes, Viair 550C, 100% LED - VisionX headlights, Rigid Light-bar, DOT Fogs, Grote tail, Soft Top and Heater, 35"KM-2's, 3" up, no articulation - it works

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 02:16:13 PM »

Using the bulb do you just run a wire from each of the injector leads to the bulb, hold it or affix the wire to the bulb and watch for flashing?

I can reach around to the top of the injectors and the key at the same time and it doesn't feel like they're clicking.
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norcal_chris

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 04:38:57 PM »

Time for that 5.3 swap tim
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Ruined a perfectly good jeep.

Mr.B

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2017, 05:02:26 PM »

Yeah, and have it done by Thursday morning. :flipoff:
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White '94 YJ 2.5L 5 speed, 35" BFGs KM2's, 5" lift, Mark VII 2 speed fan, Milemarker PE8000, Front Aussie Locker, Power steering conversion, '98 Cavalier seats, MORE Boomerangs in front, 136 amp ZJ alternator, JB conversions SYE, Tom Woods custom drive shaft, 8.8 with ARB, 4.88 gear ratio, Teralow

You're a super genius....
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2017, 05:23:47 PM »

Time for that 5.3 swap tim

I'd be all over that if I didn't have to smog it anymore.
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Screaming Bear

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2017, 05:24:26 PM »

Using the bulb do you just run a wire from each of the injector leads to the bulb, hold it or affix the wire to the bulb and watch for flashing?

I can reach around to the top of the injectors and the key at the same time and it doesn't feel like they're clicking.
The plug is larger on TBI. Testing Bill's MFI we had 12v available on one contact and the ECM switched the ground on the other contact. You should see it flashing while cranking. Howell may advise you on how to test, but I could try it on my GM system if you like. Pretty sure Painless said to use a non-LED bulb so you could catch the pulse. LED would be too fast.
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51 CJ3-A, 4.3 TBI Chevy, SM420, Dana 18TC, 30/44 Full Floaters, Yukon Front Axle and Hubs, rear drive flanges, Detroit Fr / E-Locker Rr, 4.27:1 Gears, 74:1, HD steering / 4 wheel disk brakes, Viair 550C, 100% LED - VisionX headlights, Rigid Light-bar, DOT Fogs, Grote tail, Soft Top and Heater, 35"KM-2's, 3" up, no articulation - it works

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2017, 06:41:53 PM »

They have a "noid light" set at Autozone for $25, I'm sure I can do the free rental on it, if not I may just buy one.  It's for testing them so I'd figure it'd be easy to use.  I can't get to it until Tuesday morning though.
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Mr.B

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White '94 YJ 2.5L 5 speed, 35" BFGs KM2's, 5" lift, Mark VII 2 speed fan, Milemarker PE8000, Front Aussie Locker, Power steering conversion, '98 Cavalier seats, MORE Boomerangs in front, 136 amp ZJ alternator, JB conversions SYE, Tom Woods custom drive shaft, 8.8 with ARB, 4.88 gear ratio, Teralow

You're a super genius....
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein

timatoe

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Re: Electric fuel pump
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2017, 02:10:05 AM »

Yeah, that's a dead link. I found it but no luck getting further than that.
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